Ideas From The Old Labyrinth Lord Forum

One of the reasons I back burnered Heroes of the Dungeon Crawl.  After releasing the Basic Charts Edition was because Labyrinth Lord came out.  In 2007, I was active on the Labyrinth Lord forums and even edited a couple adventures that were released.  I wanted to share a couple ideas I had posted way back then for those who may be interested...

 By the way, The HotDC Book is available a Lulu in PRINT       Or FREE DOWNLOAD...

A Map From The Old Days

I believe I have the beginnings of an idea for my first Labyrinth Lord adventure. I've mentioned it in other threads, and will probably get into more discussion of it here.

But this first post goes back to 1982 when I played out of a red book edited by a guy named Tom.

After going through B1 and B2, we started making our own dungeon crawls . I don't have many of the early ones that I did, but I have a few. My brother was the DM and could be brutal at times, but those were fun times.

It so happens that I have a copy of the first map he did. He has long since put away his dice, and he lost most of his old creations to his ex girlfriend. I managed to salvage some of them.

Anyway, this comes from a copy of the map that I have cleaned up a bit.

The adventure was called When In Doubt, Seek It Out. He liked to name dungeons after sayings for some reason. He had another one called When The Going Gets Tough, The Tough Get Going.

We did a lot of Hack N Slash playing in those days, but we had fun. I don't have the key to this one, but it was basically first and second level stuff with a touch of third. Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, that sort of thing.

There were a few things I recall about this one, though.

1-One room had a pair or Ogres climbing the walls for some reason. I think one of my characters may have said something to them and one fell from the wall. A fight broke out. I'm sure there was PC death in that one.

2-The main point of the plot comes from the room in the upper left corner. There was an alter. There were some evil wizards using a stone to animate undead. There were Zombies in this room (not sure how many).

3-As a welcoming moment to the party, you'll notice at the entrance was trap. A nice little ten foot pit trap. I know I lost characters to that type of trap, and there might have been a death there too. My brother loved traps.

I wish I had the key for this one. I know my brother ran others through this one and I ran people through it as well. Those were fun times. I still have many maps and all of our original characters (that lived anyway).

Though it's not on the drawing board at the moment, I'd love to do something with this map for old time's sake.

An Idea For A Labyrinth Lord Adventure

This was my post from the Filling The Known Lands thread. At the moment, I am taking notes and in the early process of creating something based on it.

Back in the 80's, my cousin and I did two D&D books for the fun of it, The Pro Set and The Book Of Options. The latter had an idea in it that I always wanted to try.

I made a chart of the half hit dice monsters. I may have written an adventure or two, but I can't seem to find any now. The idea was simple. I wanted to try doing an adventure for a party of thieves and magic users.

The problem is obvious. Without the heavily armored fighter or the cleric or dwarf, you are essentially dealing with an unarmored magic user who only uses daggers and a thief who may have a better weapon, but only slightly better armor. Plus, both only have d4 + constitution in hp's.

These guys could get taken out pretty quickly if you put them up against things that are too tough. But, what if we put our 1st Level thieves and magic users against half HD foes, such as Bee's, Rats, Centipedes, Kobolds and a few new foes of similar HD?

They may have a chance. Hence, a chart was born and an idea was born. Well, let's move it over to Labyrinth Lord. What could we do, and where could we put it?

I was thinking of making it an Old Wizard's School that was abandoned after something bad happened, maybe the school was attacked, or maybe a natural disaster. I was thinking of placing it somewhere near Dolmvay.

The reason the MU's and Thieves were called? Well, perhaps the MU's teacher has asked them to go to the old school to retrieve an old spell book or book of lore of some sort. The thieves are there in case of traps. The book will be on the second level of the school complex.

Can the group survive this challenge? What will they discover waiting in the rooms when they get there? I figured maybe 15-20 rooms per level. A few new monsters introduced to the game. A new place to add a little more lore to The Known Lands.

As I flesh things out on this deal, I have found a few other creatures that could make it into this one. I want to get work done on another project I'm doing, but I think this one could be fun to flesh out.

One possible name for this adventure will be:

Quest For The Ancient Tome

Well, that's one idea anyway. No date for completion is set at the moment. Don't want to put the pressure on myself. I suppose work could pick up on this one when I get my hard copy of Labyrinth Lord next week, but we'll take it as it comes.

Some Dialogue On My Above Idea

Thanks kipper.

I'm gonna leave your comments in bold and put mine in bold blue as you got me to thinking a little bit more on this.

By the way, the map in this thread is for a different idea, though I may look at doing something with it. Oh, and thanks for the comments Glgnfz. Might be a while before I do anything with it as I have a list of other things I'm working on.

Anyway...

That "Old Wizard's School/Quest for the Ancient Tomb" adventure idea looks really good! I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it!

Here are some ideas for encounters the PCs might have (I'm usually not very good at this type of stuff, but your idea has got me thinking...)

Thanks. I've had these thoughts of trying to do something with half hit dice monsters and an adventure magic users and thieves could do for years now. There are plenty of options, and I like what I've got on scratch paper so far.

Oh, and I'm always up for suggestions. Somebody may come up with something I'm not looking at. I will give credit to anybody for ideas used.

1) Rats have got into something magical, giving them some kind of special abilities, I'm thinking human-level Intelligence. They've built a little town (maybe in the Library out of old books?) with houses, stores, and the like. Perhaps they are at war with another group of rats (feral rats, or another group of intelligent ones which have split off?) and/or another monster such as centipedes or feral cats? They may have some item they are willing to give the PCs in exchange for their help. The PCs will first have to realize they are intelligent and devise a way of communicating with them...

I've definitely got giant rats in this one. I tentatively placed them in the old cafeteria, along with giant centipedes. I'll have to look closer at your suggestions though. In the other project I'm working on I have a rat like humanoid creature called a ratling. Perhaps there could be a mutation from the magic that made them that way.

One of the ideas in this adventure is that the magic got out of control making it an unsafe place for young students to learn.

2) A mixture of magical chemicals (inside an old alchemical laboratory) has generated some kind of new life form. Chemical-based, perhaps with toxic/noxious gas or the like. The PCs will have to 'think' their way around this problem (No ideas exactly how yet !)

I have that one thanks to a little prodding from Skathros and Dan. I wouldn't recommend going near them. Unfortunately, the party may have to. They are called Globules and are stated in a section of the Open Workshop if you want to take a look.

3) An old familiar of one of the ancient Magic-Users is still alive, albeit senile. Some things it tells the PCs are true, others are incorrect. Perhaps it thinks the school is still up and running, mistaking the PCs for new students?

Hmmm... I hadn't even considered that angle, and yet I think it works with this adventure. Perhaps I'll have to figure out who he (or she) is. In keeping with the theme, a magic experiment went awry and made this creature that way.

I did have the idea of having a group of kobolds here with their leader actually understanding 1st level magic and having the ability to cast spells.

That had me considering the possibility of creating a Kobold Shaman class, but that will have to keep. Need to focus on my project.

4) Giant Bees have nested in the roof. This is not much of a problem, except there is a hole in the roof of one room of the top floor, and the bees have built their hive down into it. The room's walls and floor will be covered with honeycomb and honey, making progress difficult for the PCs. If they can make enough smoke, they can keep the Bees away temporarily to make their way through, but they still need to slog through the thick, sticky honey before their smoke source runs out... (Maybe this smoke source can be found in the alchemical lab, noted above ?)

Giant Bees are definitely a part of this one. The magic users were using magic on normal bees to create healing honey, but things went awry. Suddenly, there are Giant Bees. However, you have added some ideas that could be considered here.

Fortunately, I only have a map of how the buildings are placed here, but not how the rooms are laid out, so there is plenty of room for adjustments.

5) The food stores in the cellar have long since rotted, now all that exists are some Rot Grubs, and they haven't fed in a really long time...

I'll have to look into this one a little bit. I had ideas for this area, but I hadn't even considered this possibility.

6) A small group of Kobolds is using one of the rooms (perhaps just inside a 'secret' back door to the School?) as a temporary base, while they raid neighboring farms for food. If the PCs can find this door and/or bribe the Kobolds, it will give them an alternate entrance to the School. The main/front door to the school is rumored to be trapped with magical runes...

Ah, this one is similar to my plot. The kobolds are an important part of the quest. When the school was actually being used, they were a nuisance for the magic users, though nothing they couldn't overcome when they had to. The kobolds know the lay of the land here and who occupies what. They know where a certain key is that the group will need to complete the quest. But, can they be trusted?

Also, the place the key is being hidden is not going to be a cake walk for the group.

Thanks for the input. The project is still in early stages. I have another project on the front burner for a game I'm working on, but this is penciled in for next. I'm just taking notes and coming up with ideas. I've got a few ideas not mentioned here too, but I don't wanna give away too many secrets just yet.

No ETA on when things will be done though. I don't want to put too much pressure on myself. I know I'm not the only one excited about Labyrinth Lord and the opportunity we all have to help make this game live.

About Globules

I was asked about a certain "bubbly" creature and what its stats might be

You would have to ask...

Lets see, I consulted one of my ancient tomes, which wasn't easy. I had to translate from kobold to elf and finally to human... Don't ask...

Anyway, this is what I found out about Globules. I must say that I wouldn't want to encounter too many of these at first level. Wouldn't be much fun. Feel free to tinker with this as you see fit.

Globules (water orbs)

No. Enc. 2-20
Alignment: Neutral
Move: 60’ (20’)
Armor Class: 9
Hit Dice: ½
Attacks: 1
Damage: 1-4 + Sleep
Save: F1
Morale: 9
Hoard Class: XIII

Through decades of contentious magical experimentation conducted by wizards and alchemists, in which the refuse was dumped heedlessly into the water drainage system, a strange phenomenon occurred. A strange and somehow intelligent water based creature shaped like an orb and full of a toxic air was created. The toxic air within the globule acts as a sleeping gas, and if the globule manages to hit and put a victim to sleep (save versus poison), that victim will become trapped within the orb. There is a 25% chance of the victim falling into the water while trapped within the globule. A trapped victim will be suffocated in 1-5 (1d6-1) rounds, but can be saved if somebody kills the globule. This has to happen prior to the globule sinking into the water. If it manages to kill it's victim, the globule will release that body and return above the water in search of another victim. That body will float back to the surface of the water unless weighted down. Once a Globule is destroyed, it will reform 1-3 globules within 2 days. This can be prevented if the water is drained from the area and placed in a location where it can evaporate or if it is soaked into land or fabrics, such as rugs or blankets.

Taking Some Of The Lethality Out Of Early Adventures

We had a thread that talked about Total Party Kills. I'll throw out the link in case you missed it:

http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=68&mforum=goblinoidgames

(Forum no longer up) 

The reason I'm starting this thread is to start a discussion on the topic of taking some of the lethality out of the early adventure.

Blasphemy!  You may say. Well, you have a point. This was one of the things that made the game Labyrinth Lord emulates so special to me. You could die easily in the beginning. No big deal to me, actually. A few dice rolls, a couple minutes and I'm ready to go again. But, the gaming world has changed.

Gunslinger had a very good point to make in his statement, which in part read:

It's actually one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time getting people to play. "Too easy to die."

This may not be a big deal to some, I suppose. If so, don't mind me posting this. I want to offer ideas to help the newbie to LL. At some point, a Book Of Options or whatever may be put together with cool additions to the game.

I know one poster is interested in Half Orcs. New creatures for the game are already in the offering. At some point, a book may be written to include all of these things.  Or not, I don't know.

Anyway...

In the game I have been working on, I have addressed this very issue and included some of these options.

Basically, Joe RPG'er (Very original) comes to LL from the world of 3.5. He's an RP'er first and a Hack N Slasher second. He rolls up a thief, gives him a background. He's proud of his creation, despite only having 3 HP's. Well, one encounter into the game, and an arrow to the chest from an angry orc later, he's toast.

NEXT...

Joe is only going do this so many times, and then he's giving up on the game. He won't give it a chance.

So, what can we do? The rules are fairly simple. One of the things I think most of us like about this game is the simplicity of it.

Actually, it won't take much. Let's look at a few options.

1-One or two potions of healing to start with. This may be the easiest way to handle it. One of the nice things about LL is that a 1st level cleric has that 1st level healing spell, but this idea goes a little further.

2-If you are starting in a dungeon near the town, you can also use an old computer RPG idea and just let the characters see a local healer for 5 or 10gp per healing at first.

3-Maximum Hit Points to start, plus an assumed 18 constitution bonus, for 1st level only. The magic user and thief now have 7 HP's, meaning they should be able to handle at least 1 hit from most 1st level threats. A fighter now has 11 HP's.

This is for 1st Level only. After that, you have to roll for it.

4-The 1st level monsters that can use any weapon should be armed with no better than short swords or daggers. This keeps damage down to a minimum.

Note that this should NOT apply to the final battle scenarios. If you are facing the Orc King, for instance, he should have that sword or whatever, and he may even have a + to attacks and damages.

I know, I know. These ideas coddle the new player a little bit. That ain't the way my brother did it back in the day. In fact, he had a death quota. Still loved to play in his games.

But, this is different. We are trying to get people to sit down and play, and some of these people play the newer, slicker games. They can always go back to them. The newcomer who either has played none of these games or hasn't played since the 80's won't want to play if his characters are getting whacked left and right.

I should note 4a, which is if they do something stupid, they are going to die, even with these adjustments. If they do, let them die.

5-Go easy on the traps and death by poison stuff. I know, traps are a way of life in this game, but quick deaths like this are going to discourage people from playing.

Now, by no means am I saying don't do any of this stuff. Look, if you walk into a room with an unguarded treasure and think you can just strut up to that chest and take it, you deserve to suffer the consequences. Plus, it's the only way they will ever learn.

What I am talking about is throwing a 10' pit into a hallway that leads to nothing special in the first place and that sort of thing. Putting the new characters into constant battles with creatures that have poison or other special attacks is just asking for that new player to walk away.

Get that player to the table, let them experience some success. Once they get used to things, make them work for it a little harder.

6-Bandaging as an option. Wounded in battle, down to 0 hit points, get that guy bandaged fast. This isn't original, but it is a good option. In the game I'm working on, I have left the chance that death will happen anyway or that this character will die unless healed immediately.

Well, these are just a few ideas to consider. What I would like to see is any ideas that go along these lines. I know this isn't for everybody. Some games are going now that don't need any of this sort of stuff. But to those who are looking for these sorts of options, here you go.

Gotta Love Lulu

When I was doing the desktop publishing thing, I would have loved having something like Lulu to turn to. It might not have worked as well for my weekly stuff, but it would have been perfect for special editions. They really do nice work. I knew if I could make Heroes of the Dungeon Crawl presentable enough, I would go to Lulu for printing it and for other projects as well. It's like having something you could buy at a store.

Lulu was huge in getting the OSR movement off the ground, and you can still find cool stuff there. I could have ordered Labyrinth Lord there when it was released, but Goblinoid Games did such a fantastic job of promoting it I had another option. I was able to order it at Barnes & Noble and go in there and buy it. My local game store owner didn't have a clue what I was talking about, but he sells it now. There was something so cool about buying it in a store like the old red box. I may have been the first person to buy LL that way.

I decided to support the OSR movement in December by purchasing Stonehell Dungeon and Dragons at Dawn. I became aware of Stonehell Dungeon by accident through Youtube. The publisher was LL'ing people through it and posted videos. A massive dungeon crawl. I've been thinking about making one myself and have had several ideas bouncing around for a while now. Several notes are already written.

Anyway, the Stonehell Dungeon book is a massive resource in itself, and he has supplements available and a second book planned. Lots and lots of maps and ideas. The adventure does count on the DM to be familiar with the rules and monster stats. The descriptions are not laid out like Palace Of The Silver Princess or Horror On The Hill. But, the rules are so easy that shouldn't be a problem. There is so much there it is well worth the price. We basic gamers didn't get too many big dungeon crawls back in the day, so that makes this even cooler.

Dragons at Dawn is sort of a "what if" concept as in what if Dave Arneson had published rules to the game he played prior to contacting Gary Gygax. The author spent months researching Dave's old material and interviews, comments made by players who were at Dave's table back then. The result is an interesting read and a playable game that I would bet captures the spirit of Dave's game. Short of Dave being here doing it himself, we don't know 100%, but I think it's pretty darn close. I bet Dave would approve, and anything that helps remind people of Dave's role in all of this crazy RPG stuff is alright in my book.

I have my eyes on the expansion, Dragons at Twilight, and will probably get that eventually. Another potential purchase will be Swords & Wizardry. I've only skimmed through the original D&D rules. I find the Moldvay Basic to be more to my tastes, but I'm curious enough that I may take the plunge. Besides, the author of S$W is one of the people responsible for helping make what the OSR movement is doing now possible.

Two purchases I just made other day are LL adventures, The Courtyard of Gerald Red and Fabled Curse of the Brigand Crypt. I've read some game session reports on the latter and decided I'd make the purchase. Both are set in the LL default setting, The Known Lands, and that was another plus in my book. I'd like to see more attempts to flesh out The Known Lands. Maybe one of these days I'll make an attempt myself.

I'll update this to mention I received both books, each at 16 pages with simple adventures based in the default LL setting of The Known Lands. I've skimmed through them both, and I'm impressed with Lawrence Blake's work here. He not only wrote these, but did the illustrations as well. It's simple art, but it works. I like it. If I had a game going, I would have no problem running either of these as is.

There are some challenging encounters here, but the rewards are great. As somebody who back in the day may have awarded too much treasure at times, I'm almost tempted to say there's a little bit more treasure than needed. A lot of it is one usage stuff though. The challenges are here though, and TPK can easily happen in either module if the party isn't careful. There is a save or die situation here that had it's "sting" removed. I'd probably let the dice fall and the rules stand as written in the old books, especially given the reward. All in all, though, I like what I see in both of modules.

I am working on HotDC stuff right now, and I'm contemplating an update to the Basic Charts Edition book or a supplement. I may chose an update for the book. At this point, here's what I'm thinking:

Additional Creature Charts. I do charts for 0 through 3rd Degree in the book, but I have lists for 4th through 8th.

Additional Priest and Mage Incantation lists. The lists in the book go 0 through 3, but I have 4-5 mapped out.

The Three Kings Island Map and some basic descriptions of the areas. I have been working on this a little.

That's about it, but as I work I get inspired more. The update is really the easy way because the other option is fully fleshing out and doing the proper rulebook and covering 0-10th degree for character advancement as was planned in the beginning. If nothing else, I want to talk HotDC in future posts. The one thing that is cool is having Lulu available to get things printed if/when they are ready.

A Post For Jean Wells

I wanted to post about the passing of another of the pioneers of D&D from the TSR era as it was reported earlier this week that Jean Wells passed away at the age of 56. I don't really consider that old in this day and age, but I am aware that Jean was dealing with health issues. In her interview on the Save Or Die Podcast within the last few years, it didn't sound like she was in the best of health

Jean is probably best known as the author of the original B3 Module, Palace of the Silver Princess. She wrote several Sage Advice columns for Dragon Magazine and had her finger prints on several of the best known D&D products, including B1 Keep On The Borderlands, The Monster Manual and (uncredited until an article in Dragon Magazine pointed it out) The Dungeon Master's Guide. Jean was a pioneer for women in the RPG industry.

I never knew Jean's version of Palace existed until years later. The Tom Moldvay/Jean Wells version is the one I was aquainted with. Though the newer version still retained some of Jean's characters and flavors, some stuff was removed. Tom was reportedly instructed to do whatever he needed to do to "fix" it, and Jean recounted later that she was not allowed to participate in any of that.

Now, I'm a fan of Tom's work and what he did with that module. Fact is, it's somewhat more survivable for new characters than the previous two "B" Modules, and it is enjoyable. However, Jean did a variation on Mike Carr's B1 In Search of the Unknown. Some rooms of the palace were left to the DM to stock as was the case with all B1 rooms, and others were fully stocked.

Another thing this module offered was a campaign settting. She wrote this in 1980 as The Known World was being created by David Cook and Tom Moldvay, and the palace was based in Glantri, which appears in The Known World. The area of Glantri in Jean's module has a few places descrbed to allow the DM to continue running adventures there, and there were a few NPC's desribed that the characters could interact with. She also introduced several new monsters.

True, the Moldvay/Wells version was better defined, but Jean's version gave you a foundation and the tools to allow you to build on it. Looking back at the controversy over some of the Erol Otus art and the Ubues, I can't help but feel a bit sad for the ambitous young lady who probably had a few other good ideas up her sleeve. The art was tame compared to some of the art that appeared in earlier D&D books, for one thing, but with the forces of PC and religion coming after the game, she was the one who took the fall.

I wasn't there, and I'm just a fan looking at what others who were there had to say, but I can't help but think some people wanted her to fail. There was art in there that the artist should have known better than to create. The office insider stuff that should never have been created and put into her module. I wonder, if somebody had been there to offer moral support and watch out for stuff like that, what might have been.

The concept behind Jean's Palace was solid. Maybe a rough edge or two, but it could have been smoothed away without much effort. I like much of Erol's art, but perhaps this wasn't the place to make any statements he might have wanted to make against the powers that be? But, it happened, and Jean took the fall.

When I read her comments in her Grognardia blog interview or hear what she said in the Save Or Die Podcast, it makes me sad. I wonder what could have been. She sounds like she had a love for this game back then, but the experiences with B3 soured her. She mentioned in that podcast having another adventure to publish for free if she could get the help. Much like the rumored works of Moldvay after he died, I somewhow doubt anything will come to pass, and that makes me sad.

It wasn't until I read Jean's version of B3 that I realized that she had some good ideas and lots of potential. It makes me wish I could have been there for her to help fight off the negativity coming her way and help her B3 get the fighting chance it deserved. Alas, that was not to be, and this is just me rambling.

So, I'll end this by saying thanks for the menories Jean. You weren't at TSR that long really, but you still managed to make a positve impact while you were there. May you find happiness and peace in this stage of your journey.

My Opinion, Based On Little Information

So, the D&D Experience has taken place, the seminars happened and some lucky players got an early look at what sounds like could be the "basic" version of what's next (What's wrong with calling it 5e I wonder).

The comment made a week or so ago that got the whole community talking was the idea that this next iteration of the game would allow a 1e or basic player to sit at the table with that character while somebody else plays it 2e style, another 3e and another 4e. The collective "huh" (or something unprintable) heard around the net was from the people wanting to know what they're drinking up there in Washington.

Well, this week sheds some light on that lofty proclaimation from the wizards. They probably should have qualified the 1e player and 3e player with "it feels like a character from that edition". I think it's obvisous there will be no decending AC. That ship has sailed, but does it really matter?

For my part, I don't get the problem with decending AC. I NEVER had a problem understanding it, but whatever. I don't think that is a deal breaker, but they should understand something. Every little tweak they make to those old rules, while claiming it is in the style of the old game, will be a potential "deal breaker" for those players. That goes for any edition, I suppose.

The funny thing is, I think they understand that. They are walking a tightrope, but I think they truly believe they can pull this off. I'd say it won't be easy, but maybe it will be easier than anybody is giving it credit. Maybe? I don't know. I'm not a mind reader. Every overature made to the old gamers is annoying the newer gamers. Yeah, it's a tightrope.

The question still has to be asked and that's how can you have that basic character in the group next to the one with all the newer feats and other "cool" stuff? Well, it hasn't been said, but I think the idea is that the old style player is expected to "gravitate" towards the new style a little at a time if need be, AND the rules are being wrtten in that way.

So, here's the thing I've been thinking and I admit I could be wrong. The first installment of this deal needs to be basic in the "style" of the old game. That's what needs to be in the box or hard books. Whatever. For this point, I'm calling it D&D Basic, but I'm not stuck on that name.

This D&D Basic needs to cover all the basic stuff in that certain "style" where all the future installments can be bolted on by those who want them. It should cover at least 10 levels if not more. You should be able to do a whole campaign with just this set of rules if you want to, AND none of the future installment's rules should be defined at all other than a hint at what's to come.

When people run games at the game store, they will have the option of naming the style based on what installments are used, such as D&D Basic, D&D Expert or D&D Master, meaning all rules covered up to that point. This way those wanting only that style who are DM'ing can cite that they are playng D&D Basic. No guy with feats sitting next to basic guy, unless that is specified. If your own group is playing D&D Basic at home, this isn't an issue, but we're talking game stores and such places.

Problem with not doing this is simple. Somebody buys a rule book that has all the bells and whistles and is told they can't and the response is, "But it's in the rules." There's been a history in recent years of having to allow it if it's in the rules. But, if you have all the basic rules only in the first installent, response can be, "but this is all that's covered in the rules that we are using, and you're welcome to play by them."

It's just a thought, but I actually think it can work if they do it like this. I'm sure there will be huge core books at some point with everything in there, maybe defined within those pages as to what is Basic, Expert and Master to work with those DM's, but having the rules rolled out starting with D&D Basic will send a clear message of support for those who just want to play in the basic style,

At least, thats how I see it. I could be wrong. Who knows? It's all just speculation at this point. A segmenent of the old crowd didn't budge for 3e or 4e. Heck, some of them bristled at the thought of playing 2e as well. What makes anybody think this next deal will be any different? I know one thing, if Mike and Monte can pull this off, they could become real legends in the industry. I'd stop short of Gygax and Arneson level, but what the heck? I hope they can pull it off. Time will tell.

Still Impressed With Labyrinth Lord

Another visit to my local game store revealed the presence of Labyrinth Lord, and I do have to say Goblinoid Games has done a fine job of representing old school. It's my understanding that there has been a group playing the game at the store in the past, but not recently. I've been out of the game for a while and missed that.

Now, this store has the heavy dose of D&D and Pathfinder you'd expect. What makes it cool is he has a good supply of older versions of D&D and is always adding more. Nothing from the Basic line at the moment other than a Mentzer Expert Box. There are other games there and Knights Of The Dinner Table. Had to get a copy of that. It's been a while, and it helps me feel close to the game reading those strips.

Anyway, I was pleased to see Labyrinth Lord and Realms Of Crawling Chaos on the shelf. It was a year or so ago when I saw the LL book and Advanced LL there as well as a copy of Village Of Larm, which I bought. When I was active on the old LL forum, I had a few discussions with the writer of that excellent module. I went on to help edit his Mountain King module.

Now that was an interesting concept. The mountain king was a kobold with Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a nice sword. In one forum post, he related that a play test resulted in a total party kill in that big encounter. That was one kobold you didn't want to mess with. I understand there was a sequel to that one too.

Now when the LL forum was opened it was pretty busy in the early days. There were lots of ideas flying around and a desire that everybody seemed to share that LL be successful. When Daniel put up the map of The Known Lands, I started a thread about filling the lands with stuff. There were lots of ideas, but Mortiz was the one who started making it happen. The Mountain King, The Road to Dolmvay and Village Of Larm were three of them.

What's cool is Daniel put that map out that is totally inspired by a certain other map from a blue book we all remember and said, "Do what you want with it." And people did. I'm sure some of the ideas came from people's old game sessions from way back when too. What a cool thing. I mean, OSRIC and LL made this happen, and suddenly new adventures were added to the old school canon.

When I ask where that Basic game is, I know where it is. It's been here for about five years now as Labyrinth Lord, just not backed by a big company. It's always been my game style of choice. I'd like to see one of the big companies of choice get behind a basic style game, and that seems to be happening now. But old school basic is alive and well with LL.

When Daniel released LL and hinted at Advanced LL being next, nobody said how about Basic LL. Let me qualify that statement. You see, LL is more based on Moldvay's work than Mentzer's, and it does a great job. This is just a new thought that I had while looking at the Starter Set Box with the Elmore Dragon on the shelf at the game store.

You see, Frank did so much in capturing the imagination when he did that Basic Set in 1983. Moldvay's red book probably had the rules in an easier to access format, but Mentzer made it come to life. You don't hear the phrase "Kill Bargle" for nothing. Poor Aleena, why did she have to die? People talk about that too. I recall that solo adventure, wondering what was in that treasure chest I couldn't get to due to a lack of a thief.

In short, the Mentzer Basic Set told a story, while also explaining the rules to play levels 1-3. Heck, you were playing before you knew the rules. I would guess one reason for the lack of such a book for LL is because the rules are already in that book and this wouldn't be cost effective. But, the idea just hit me and I thought it sounded cool.

Imagine a similar, but different where it legally has to be, Basic LL book with a solo adventure. A few NPC's introduced. Somebody dies. The story can be different, but the goal is the same. Engage the imagination of the new gamer. Of course, Frank did that so well, maybe we don't need that now. I don't know. I just thought it was a cool idea.

Anyway, my main point is I'm happy that Labyrinth Lord is still alive and well entering it's fifth year, and even happier I'm hearing NOTHING about a new edition. The cool thing is, if it ever came down to it, you may see some new art or a change in wording here or there, but I doubt you'll ever see the game change. It really doesn't need to.